-------------------------------------------------
Me:
There are 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world.
The number of people who planned the 9/11 attacks, plus the Hijackers, is probably less than 50. If you want to add in Al-Qaeda, an organization that is so loosely connected it is near the equivalent of having Facebook friends, you might get another 10,000 or so.
If you do the math: 99.9% of Muslims had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
You have no logic. You have no argument. All you have is ignorance, intolerance, and prejudice.
The more you make your fellow citizens feel the brunt of your foolish hatred, the more people will turn to violence as a result of their feelings of alienation and fear. You are putting this country in danger. You are violating the very spirit of the nation you claim to hold dear: religious freedom, religious tolerance, and equality amongst American citizens.
Him:
@Gage Lawhon - Google the term "useful idiot". Then try reading a book. As for that college degree, your father should ask for his money back because you clearly did not learn critical thinking skills at Washington State.
http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/video3-things-you-should-know-about-islam/
Oh, and you forgot to blame "the Jooooz".
Me:
So first you ignore my argument, then you went on my facebook account to find out how to insult me?
Man, you are creepy. Way to go.
Let's see "useful idiot." Oh yes, a derogatory people used by communism-phobics to throw down their rhetorical opponents during the foolishness of the Cold War Era. You are implying that I am being fooled by naiveté to help Islam "take over the word" I assume?
This is rather ridiculous, as it assumes that all Muslims are on the same "team." This is not true. The truth is similar to the concept that all Christians are not on the same "team," and that Christians in the UK and Christians in America are better described as British people and American people. Muslims in Saudi Arabia are Saudi Arabians. Muslims in America are Americans. You are not fighting against Islam. You are fighting to persecute and deny equal rights to your fellow American citizens.
I like your video, especially after you tell me to read a book. Did you read a book, or did you just watch this video? Though, there is one book I HAVE read, and it happens to be the Qu'ran. Since you actually believe this video, it is obvious to me that you have not.
I will now list out the lies this video uses to convince you to hate your fellow Americans.
1. The Qur'an admits to being contradictory
This is false. The Qur'an makes no such claim. And during my readings, I don't remember a single contradiction. And since the whole purpose of me reading the book was trying to understand how or why Islam might be violent, I probably would have remembered something along this line. Also, the Qur'an never makes the claim that "newer" passages overwrite "older" ones.
2. Violent passages come late in the book.
This is false. The few passages (there are 4 of them) that advocate violence occur in the first quarter of the Qur'an. And they are all historical contextualized by the struggle of early Islam. What this video does not tell you is that Muhammad received his messages in relation to questions regarding the early Islamic community. At the time of those violent passages, a larger army from the south was coming north to wipe them out, and the Muslims needed to defend themselves from the invaders.
As a non-sequitur: The Bible is horrendously violent in a way that pales in comparison to the four sentences of the Qur'an. You can see my ongoing study of the Bible here: http://theologiaameliorate.blogspot.com/
While the Qur'an is assuredly against violence, even to the point of dooming Muslims who hurt innocents, the Bible gives blatant permission for genocide and sexual slavery. Awesome.
3. There is no separation between the political and the religious in Islam.
This is also a lie. There are no politics in the Qur'an. And religious rule in the real world is not unheard of. Perhaps you have heard of the Catholic Church?The entity which controlled the politics of Europe with an iron fist for over 1000 years?
4. The concept of religious law.
This is more a lie of omission. It tries to make you afraid by saying the Qur'an controls lives in a totalitarian way. The Qur'an does no such thing, it simply outlines basic rules, but is rather vague and loose when compared to the Bible. Any totalitarian interpretation of the Qur'an is a result of dogma, not the true nature of the faith.
Again, this is not unique to Islam. Try reading the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Qur'an sets rules, like all religions do, but the only one that most in the West would have a problem with is the rules regarding the modesty in women. However, if you are at all aware of Christian history, you'll know that Christian women had nearly the same controls on their lives for many thousands of years.
The video then attempts to use to make you afraid of Islamic law by saying it is spreading across the world, when in reality it is just coming with Muslims as our new age of globalization is creating a world culture. It is natural for an immigrant people to bring their culture with them. It then lists punishments for many crimes, all of which have the same punishment as Biblical law. And ordering blasphemers to death is also not unique to Islam, the Catholic Church did that a lot.
The Qur'an also never commands violent jihad except in response to persecution. The very persecution you are now carrying out, funnily enough. All people who are persecuted eventually fight back, so this is not unexpected.
5. The Qur'an advocates lying.
Now this one is actually in the Qur'an. However, this video misrepresents the concept. The purpose of the lies in the Qur'an are to smooth relations between non-believes with the goal of peaceful cohabitation with them. The design is to keep tensions low between Muslims and other people, so violence and sin will not occur. Muslims are told that all people will be judged for their actions after they are dead, so allow people to live as they wish, and God will deal with them Himself.
And in regards to Islamic leaders being liars, well, they are politicians. All politicians lie. You cannot blame that on Islam. Clinton lied about getting oral sex, but that doesn't mean all Christians are liars.
6. Islam is at war with all non-Muslims.
I've never heard such a ridiculous claim. There is no backing for this anywhere in the Qur'an. The book does not even advocate proselytizing, unlike Christianity. It says converts will come to Islam, Islam does not need to force its way on them. This is a blatant lie created to make you afraid.
And that is all 8 minutes of your little educational clip. Do you have any other sources of your ignorance? I would happily read/watch them and tell you where they lie to you in order to manipulate your emotions of xenophobia and prejudice.
Him:
Why yes, I do read books. I heartily recommend Robert Spencer's "The Truth About Muhammed". You'll probably have to get it from Amazon because I'm sure your left-wing college bookstore doesn't stock it.
You really have swallowed the multi-culti kool-aid haven't you? Moral equivalence is probably the most bone-headed sociological theory ever conceived. Tell me O sagacious one, how does the government work in every Islamic state? It follows Islamic Law, doesn't it? And where do they get Islamic Law? Why from the Koran of course! Right, I knew you'd understand.
You read the whole thing? Good for you. You now know more about how to take a dump than should ever have been committed to paper.
But I know that even if you read it, you certainly don't understand it.
Guys who do understand it, like the Islamic scholars of Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere, all disagree with you. Many of Islam's followers disagree with you too (just ask Theo Van Gogh, oh wait, you can't).
See, what you've been led to believe is "politically correct Islam". They lied to you. Real Islam is intolerant. Real Islam is out to kill the Jews (cough, Palestinians, cough). Real Islam is determined to take over the world.
And by-the-by, what exactly is a "communism-phobic"? Surely you can't be advocating the righteousness of Stalin's Soviet Union? I lived through the Cold War sport. It was no picnic.
Me:
I am happy to know you read books. Robert Spencer is as much full of hate, rage, and lies as that video was. His entire argument is based on the same ideas as yours, that Islam is somehow this vast conspiracy to take over the world. This idea is pure madness. How would that be possible? It's like reading Cold War propaganda, but the word "communist" has been switched for "Muslim." Look around you. That phobia turned out to be a lie. Empty smoke and mirrors, falsehoods and illogical fears. This crap about Islam is the same thing.
Like I said: the section on violence in the Qur'an is about four sentences. That leaves about 400 pages of peace, tolerance, and wise advice that you are unwilling to see for yourself.
My bookstore? I graduated from college, dude. Over a year and a half ago. I shop at bookstores just like you do.
I like how you ignored everything I said about the Qur'an. Presumably because it doesn't match with your current beliefs, and you don't know how to handle that. Why won't you read the Qur'an? Does the potential for the Truth being different from your beliefs scare you? It's okay if it does. That happens to lots of people.
I can't say multiculturalism is a some sort of cult either. Why is it wrong to believe that everyone in the world can live in peace? It's people with views like yours, people who perpetuate hate and intolerance, who work against this very real possibility. Israeli and Palestinian civilians have no trouble living near each other, and shopping together. Hell, several million Muslims live in Israel itself. Several thousand Muslims probably live in whatever city you do, and they are perfectly content living their lives like any other human being on the planet.
Have you seen travel shows? Islamic people are quite happy and content in their respective nations, or at least the ones the United States isn't currently occupying. Yes, Iran is a totalitarianism state, but the government uses Islam as a means for power, in the exact ways Kings invented the Divine Right of Kings bullshit to rule theirs. And the Iranian people are fighting against their government. That throws a wrench in your concept of a untied Islamic front right there. All your argument has is exceptions.
Let's see. Dubai, Egypt, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., and most of the continent of Africa are all Muslim dominated. And they are all just as varyingly peaceful as any other independent nation in the world, Islamic or otherwise. When you see Islam, you see Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. You refuse to see the rest of the picture because it does not fit in with what you believe. That is what allowing yourself to be fooled is like.
Besides, I already explained to you what Islamic law in the Qur'an is like. It's no different from Christianity, and in many respects, it is more forgiving and merciful. Why won't you read it? What are you afraid of? I like how you act like you know more about it having not read it, and you refuse to read it, and you say I'm a fool just for reading it. Actually, reading the sources of the opposing side is a great tool to understand them. It's how intelligent people advance their world view. You should try it sometime.
In regards to Islamic scholars: Islamic scholars do not all agree. They are just as divided as Christian scholars, Jewish scholars, and the like. Muslims are not all together, and I don't know why you are obsessed with that falsehood. They don't all disagree with me, only the ones who have jumped on the anti-West bandwagon probably do.
Don't you see? All politics are local, and anti-West sentiment is one path to power amongst the masses in the middle east. And for good reason: people only have to look around and see the West bombing their cities, Western soldiers walking through their towns, and claiming, like you, that all Muslims are their enemies. On the other side of the world, there are people writing books that are Islamic versions of Robert Spencer, creating Islamic versions of you.
No one lied to me about "real Islam". No one told me anything. I read the Qur'an. I open my eyes and see the truth. I've met and spoken with Muslims on numerous occasions. They are like you and me. They have families they love, dreams to achieve, and they desire peace and prosperity above all. I form my own opinions from my own knowledge and experiences, how do you do it?
Communism Phobia is the best way to describe the political environment of the Cold War. Politicians seeking power in the United States galvanized fear in the general population by holding the threat of nuclear annihilation over their heads. In retrospect, we know that Stalin never had an intention to attack the West. Neither did Mao. But the FEAR of it helped keep them in power, too. So both sides, The East and the United States, were just posturing pointlessly like peacocks, each attempting to mate with their own respective populations and political power structures.
Then Stalin died, and Kruscheiv gave his secret speech. Then Mao needed to destroy his rival at home, Lin Shaqui, so we have a picture of Zhou Enlai shaking hands with Richard Nixon. It was all phobia. None of it was ever warranted. The entire era was the result of devious manipulation of the masses.
Him:
There are approximately 100 million dead Russians, Chinese, and Eastern Europeans who would vehemently disagree with you. The communists "galvanzed" all the fear they needed without any help from us.
You wouldn't happen to be related to Walter Duranty, would you?
I can see you've never actually lived in an Islamic society. Trust me, you wouldn't want to. Ar maybe you should, because all of your illusions will be shattered within the first 10 minutes. Especially if you bring your wife or girlfriend.
How do I know this? A good friend's wife bears the scars inflicted by the canes of the Saudi mutaween.
In all of those "peaceful" countries you cite, Christians and Jews fear for their lives. Coptic Christians in Egypt are persecuted daily. Jews in Iran were driven out long ago. Open your eyes Mr. Scholar, you might learn something.
And let's see, you read the Bible. Did you also read Acquinas? Saint Frances of Assisi? Any western philosophy? Here's the thing. You cannot interpret the Bible correctlywithout understanding these accompanying texts.
The practical application of the Koran also follows this model. Muslims "read" the Koran, in Arabic, even if their native language is not Arabic. But they don't interpret it for themselves. The Imam does that for them. In all Islamic states there is a ruling council of clerics who define the law.
Islam is forgiving and merciful? Gimme a break. Stoning for adultery? A women who is raped is then punished by the religious police? Thieves getting their hands chopped off? Yes my friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 3 years saw many mutilations and executions in the town square. All presided over by a cleric.
So don't lecture me about Sharia. Because its implementation sucks.
Me:
You are a master of arguing points I didn't even make. I never said life under Communism didn't suck. You asked what communist phobia was and I said what communist phobia was: the fear of an attack that was never going to come, ever. But as usual, you are trying to distract from the main argument:
You can understand the Bible without reading everything else. It's a book with words in it. Anyone who can read can understand it. That's what Acquinas did. That's what Francis of Assisi did. They read the Bible, and then they wrote what they thought about it.
That doesn't make them more important than the actual Bible. Just because the political church leaders liked their shit so much that they basically canonized it doesn't make it Scriptural truth. It's just bullshit written by mortals who have no greater grasp of the question of Divinity than anyone else who reads the Bible. They just seem inspired because the Church made them Saints, an entirely political process.
It's the same thing with the Qur'an. Anyone who reads it can see the peace and tolerance behind the religion. Your argument that Sharia law sucks does not combat my points. I never said it didn't suck. I just said it's just like Biblical law, which also sucked very hard. And that it was worse. Try the book of Deuteronomy where the Bible commands you to kill your son if he is unruly, and to kill anyone who doesn't follow the order of a priest. The violence, the cruelty, and the insanity that is inherent with all fundamental religious wackos is right there, just like it can be potentially found in the application of Sharia law.
That's my point. My whole argument is that Islam is no different from the other two monotheistic religions. They all follow the same God, the God of Abraham, and the Qur'an even preaches for peace amongst Christians, Jews, and Muslims in multiple sections, affirming that all three paths are viable roads to heaven. It preaches for peace and the abstinence from violence almost from cover to cover.
The Imam's who you are talking about are misinterpreting the Qur'an for their own vile purposes. Anyone who has read the thing can see it, its obvious what the true nature of Islam is. That's my point. The Imams, the political leaders, they are the minority. You cannot judge a religion of 1.5 Billion people by the actions of a limited few. Do you claim Christianity is evil for the Spanish Inquisition? Do you claim Christianity is evil when it advocated African slavery? Do you claim Christianity is evil for the Crusades? You know, when thousands of Christians went to the Middle East and committed mass genocide?
No. You don't. You recognize that religion can do evil shit when evil men are holding the reigns, but you recognize that the religion itself is a force of good. It's the same situation now with Islam.
But you wouldn't know that, because you refuse to read the Qur'an. Refuse to read 400 pages for yourself. Because you are lazy and arrogant. You commit the greatest crime of intellect: trusting what someone else says. Hypocritically, you commit the same crime that you just criticized Muslims for: you don't interpret it for yourself.
P.S. Christians and Jews do not "fear for their lives" in those countries I listed because they are ruled by Muslims. Why wouldn't they move? Why don't most of them move? Why do they stay in what you claim is a land that wants to kill them? Why would they stay in a Muslim dominated country that they can freely move away from if they fear for their lives? It's because they don't. It's because Muslims are peaceful and normal like everyone else.
They, like everyone else, are afraid of the small minority of whack jobs. A small minority of a global population of 1.5 Billion. Your logic is the obvious fallacy of generalization.
Him:
Oh my young and naive new friend. There is so much that you think you know, yet so little that you understand.
Our fear of communism was driven by its propensity to murder its citizens.
You say all Christians need to do is read the Bible, but then admit that we don't follow of its precepts. We abolished slavery. We don't stone homosexuals. Why? Because the great philosophers put the Bible into *context*.
And now we have Islamic scholars who are putting the Koran into "context". They're the authority dude. Not you. Not me. Life E.F. Hutton, when they speak, the Muslims listen. And what they say, time and again, is "kill the Jews". What they say is "subjugate women". What they say is completely and utterly intolerent.
You must live in some fantasyland where theory trumps implementation. I live in the Real World, where the rubber meets the road. And in the Real World Islam is definitely working overtime to take over. In the Real World the goal of Islam is to impose Sharia over everyone.
Your small minority of Muslims crap is unproven. Where are the counterbalances to Iran and Hamas? There are no "moderate" Muslim states. Why do you suppose that is? There are no "moderate" Muslim clerics countering the Jihadis. Millions upon millions of Muslims worldwide rioted because of a few cartoons published in a Danish newspaper. Are they "moderates"?
Whack-job Christians? Sure. And when Pat Robertson says something stupid, he's denounced by all sides. Fred Phelps is a pariah. The Mullahs of Iran and Saudi Arabia are revered. Open your eyes chief.
And for God's sake, use Google. Coptic Christians in Egypt are under constant attack and persecution. What about Bethlehem? Should *it* move? The Muslims have made it virtually impossible for Christians to go there. Muslims desecrated the Church of the Nativity, using the prayer books for toilet paper. They defecated on the alter. Did millions upon millions of Christians worldwide riot? Yet it's a Federal Case when one bozo at NYU puts a Koran in a toilet?
"Why don't they move?" Good question! Ask it of Imam Rauf and his duplicious wife! Why don't *they* move!
Me:
Historical context? Hold on a minute Hoss. You said to read the words. Once you inject "historical context" (or any other "context") you're right where I am - interpreting the words.
And I've had a lot of experience learning from people who've spent a lifetime interpreting the Bible. And the Koran.
You might think you know what Muhammad meant when he said "x". But if most (all) Muslims think otherwise, your opinion is likely to be incorrect.
As for the decree for everyone to "worship God" you're not on solid ground.
"Say, O people of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah." (3:64)
That doesn't sound like "freedom to travel to Mecca". That sounds like give up Jesus and the Holy Ghost and then we can talk.
I'm surprised that you say the Koran says a non-believer can live in Mecca. Have you seen the signs along the road? "All infidels must exit". The penalty for an infidel who enters Mecca is (c'mon gues) - yup, death. There ain't a Muslim alive who'd disagree with that.
Meanwhile the "penalty" for a Muslim (or Jew or Buddhist or ...) who enters Vatican City? None. His Holiness welcomes all visitors.
Back to the Koran. Verse 9:29 defines the Jizya (poll tax). If (and that's a big "if") Jews and Christians submitted to rule by Muslims they can live in an Islamic state as second class citiziens. The Arabic word is "dhimmi" which means "protected" or "guilty" people. "Protected" because they are "People of the Book", but "guilty" because they have not accepted Islam as the one true faith.
Because of this "guilt" Jews and Christians may live in an Islamic state, but not as equals of Muslims. And "pagans" have it much worse under Islam. They are both "guilty" and "unclean". Contact between Muslims and "pagans" is strictly prohibited by the Koran.
Jews and Christians are also specifically enjoined from practicing their religion in an Islamic state. The conditions imposed by Sharia are severe; basically if htey agree to observe all Muslim holidays and fasts, pray 5 times daily at a mosque, and adhere to Sharia, then they can worship according to their customs. Which of course makes them de facto Muslims anyway.
Later on in his life Muhammad expressed even more emnity toward Christians. Reread Koran 9:30 - 35 (no, I'm not going to type it all in). It says that unless we renounce Jesus and Mary, we're cast out. And any Christian who hides his money from Allah? Cast out.
Then go reread Koran 9:44 - 45. There Muhammad tells Muslims to wage jihad all day every day. If you don't risk your life and property in the pursuit of jihad then you are an "unbeliever" too. And since you're now into "context"; this passage is in the context of a Muslim raid on Christian lands, ordered by Allah in a revelation to Muhammad.
Oh, and one of these days I guess you're gonna figure out that I have indeed read Muhammad's rantings. I've also read interpretations, both by Muslim scholars as well as by those who view Islam with a critical eye. And guess what? I made up my own mind!
We've strayed far afield from the Ground Zero mosque. Charles Krauthammer speaks far more eloquently than I do on that score:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996_pf.html
And on the subject of the proverbial "moderate Muslim". Well I couldn't resist posting this:
http://wyblog.us/blog/islam/hey-gage-lawhon-moderate-muslims-here
Me:
Okay. I'm done.
When you post a new blog devoted entirely to insulting me: My ability to write at length about important issues, ignore points I have made in order to make me look worse than I am, and even use my twitter handle as some kind of attack on me as a person.
It means I've wasted my time with someone who I gave the benefit of the doubt as being a good person. I was wrong. Enjoy your hate mongering. I will never bother you again.
As a warning though: I am going to repost our discussion on my blogs. I am doing this because I think this entire exercise is a good display of the two sides of the argument. But since I have decency, I won't be using your name, I won't be insulting you. I'll just show the entire discussion in its entirety.
There are 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world.
The number of people who planned the 9/11 attacks, plus the Hijackers, is probably less than 50. If you want to add in Al-Qaeda, an organization that is so loosely connected it is near the equivalent of having Facebook friends, you might get another 10,000 or so.
If you do the math: 99.9% of Muslims had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
You have no logic. You have no argument. All you have is ignorance, intolerance, and prejudice.
The more you make your fellow citizens feel the brunt of your foolish hatred, the more people will turn to violence as a result of their feelings of alienation and fear. You are putting this country in danger. You are violating the very spirit of the nation you claim to hold dear: religious freedom, religious tolerance, and equality amongst American citizens.
Him:
@Gage Lawhon - Google the term "useful idiot". Then try reading a book. As for that college degree, your father should ask for his money back because you clearly did not learn critical thinking skills at Washington State.
http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/video3-things-you-should-know-about-islam/
Oh, and you forgot to blame "the Jooooz".
Me:
So first you ignore my argument, then you went on my facebook account to find out how to insult me?
Man, you are creepy. Way to go.
Let's see "useful idiot." Oh yes, a derogatory people used by communism-phobics to throw down their rhetorical opponents during the foolishness of the Cold War Era. You are implying that I am being fooled by naiveté to help Islam "take over the word" I assume?
This is rather ridiculous, as it assumes that all Muslims are on the same "team." This is not true. The truth is similar to the concept that all Christians are not on the same "team," and that Christians in the UK and Christians in America are better described as British people and American people. Muslims in Saudi Arabia are Saudi Arabians. Muslims in America are Americans. You are not fighting against Islam. You are fighting to persecute and deny equal rights to your fellow American citizens.
I like your video, especially after you tell me to read a book. Did you read a book, or did you just watch this video? Though, there is one book I HAVE read, and it happens to be the Qu'ran. Since you actually believe this video, it is obvious to me that you have not.
I will now list out the lies this video uses to convince you to hate your fellow Americans.
1. The Qur'an admits to being contradictory
This is false. The Qur'an makes no such claim. And during my readings, I don't remember a single contradiction. And since the whole purpose of me reading the book was trying to understand how or why Islam might be violent, I probably would have remembered something along this line. Also, the Qur'an never makes the claim that "newer" passages overwrite "older" ones.
2. Violent passages come late in the book.
This is false. The few passages (there are 4 of them) that advocate violence occur in the first quarter of the Qur'an. And they are all historical contextualized by the struggle of early Islam. What this video does not tell you is that Muhammad received his messages in relation to questions regarding the early Islamic community. At the time of those violent passages, a larger army from the south was coming north to wipe them out, and the Muslims needed to defend themselves from the invaders.
As a non-sequitur: The Bible is horrendously violent in a way that pales in comparison to the four sentences of the Qur'an. You can see my ongoing study of the Bible here: http://theologiaameliorate.blogspot.com/
While the Qur'an is assuredly against violence, even to the point of dooming Muslims who hurt innocents, the Bible gives blatant permission for genocide and sexual slavery. Awesome.
3. There is no separation between the political and the religious in Islam.
This is also a lie. There are no politics in the Qur'an. And religious rule in the real world is not unheard of. Perhaps you have heard of the Catholic Church?The entity which controlled the politics of Europe with an iron fist for over 1000 years?
4. The concept of religious law.
This is more a lie of omission. It tries to make you afraid by saying the Qur'an controls lives in a totalitarian way. The Qur'an does no such thing, it simply outlines basic rules, but is rather vague and loose when compared to the Bible. Any totalitarian interpretation of the Qur'an is a result of dogma, not the true nature of the faith.
Again, this is not unique to Islam. Try reading the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Qur'an sets rules, like all religions do, but the only one that most in the West would have a problem with is the rules regarding the modesty in women. However, if you are at all aware of Christian history, you'll know that Christian women had nearly the same controls on their lives for many thousands of years.
The video then attempts to use to make you afraid of Islamic law by saying it is spreading across the world, when in reality it is just coming with Muslims as our new age of globalization is creating a world culture. It is natural for an immigrant people to bring their culture with them. It then lists punishments for many crimes, all of which have the same punishment as Biblical law. And ordering blasphemers to death is also not unique to Islam, the Catholic Church did that a lot.
The Qur'an also never commands violent jihad except in response to persecution. The very persecution you are now carrying out, funnily enough. All people who are persecuted eventually fight back, so this is not unexpected.
5. The Qur'an advocates lying.
Now this one is actually in the Qur'an. However, this video misrepresents the concept. The purpose of the lies in the Qur'an are to smooth relations between non-believes with the goal of peaceful cohabitation with them. The design is to keep tensions low between Muslims and other people, so violence and sin will not occur. Muslims are told that all people will be judged for their actions after they are dead, so allow people to live as they wish, and God will deal with them Himself.
And in regards to Islamic leaders being liars, well, they are politicians. All politicians lie. You cannot blame that on Islam. Clinton lied about getting oral sex, but that doesn't mean all Christians are liars.
6. Islam is at war with all non-Muslims.
I've never heard such a ridiculous claim. There is no backing for this anywhere in the Qur'an. The book does not even advocate proselytizing, unlike Christianity. It says converts will come to Islam, Islam does not need to force its way on them. This is a blatant lie created to make you afraid.
And that is all 8 minutes of your little educational clip. Do you have any other sources of your ignorance? I would happily read/watch them and tell you where they lie to you in order to manipulate your emotions of xenophobia and prejudice.
Him:
Why yes, I do read books. I heartily recommend Robert Spencer's "The Truth About Muhammed". You'll probably have to get it from Amazon because I'm sure your left-wing college bookstore doesn't stock it.
You really have swallowed the multi-culti kool-aid haven't you? Moral equivalence is probably the most bone-headed sociological theory ever conceived. Tell me O sagacious one, how does the government work in every Islamic state? It follows Islamic Law, doesn't it? And where do they get Islamic Law? Why from the Koran of course! Right, I knew you'd understand.
You read the whole thing? Good for you. You now know more about how to take a dump than should ever have been committed to paper.
But I know that even if you read it, you certainly don't understand it.
Guys who do understand it, like the Islamic scholars of Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere, all disagree with you. Many of Islam's followers disagree with you too (just ask Theo Van Gogh, oh wait, you can't).
See, what you've been led to believe is "politically correct Islam". They lied to you. Real Islam is intolerant. Real Islam is out to kill the Jews (cough, Palestinians, cough). Real Islam is determined to take over the world.
And by-the-by, what exactly is a "communism-phobic"? Surely you can't be advocating the righteousness of Stalin's Soviet Union? I lived through the Cold War sport. It was no picnic.
Me:
I am happy to know you read books. Robert Spencer is as much full of hate, rage, and lies as that video was. His entire argument is based on the same ideas as yours, that Islam is somehow this vast conspiracy to take over the world. This idea is pure madness. How would that be possible? It's like reading Cold War propaganda, but the word "communist" has been switched for "Muslim." Look around you. That phobia turned out to be a lie. Empty smoke and mirrors, falsehoods and illogical fears. This crap about Islam is the same thing.
Like I said: the section on violence in the Qur'an is about four sentences. That leaves about 400 pages of peace, tolerance, and wise advice that you are unwilling to see for yourself.
My bookstore? I graduated from college, dude. Over a year and a half ago. I shop at bookstores just like you do.
I like how you ignored everything I said about the Qur'an. Presumably because it doesn't match with your current beliefs, and you don't know how to handle that. Why won't you read the Qur'an? Does the potential for the Truth being different from your beliefs scare you? It's okay if it does. That happens to lots of people.
I can't say multiculturalism is a some sort of cult either. Why is it wrong to believe that everyone in the world can live in peace? It's people with views like yours, people who perpetuate hate and intolerance, who work against this very real possibility. Israeli and Palestinian civilians have no trouble living near each other, and shopping together. Hell, several million Muslims live in Israel itself. Several thousand Muslims probably live in whatever city you do, and they are perfectly content living their lives like any other human being on the planet.
Have you seen travel shows? Islamic people are quite happy and content in their respective nations, or at least the ones the United States isn't currently occupying. Yes, Iran is a totalitarianism state, but the government uses Islam as a means for power, in the exact ways Kings invented the Divine Right of Kings bullshit to rule theirs. And the Iranian people are fighting against their government. That throws a wrench in your concept of a untied Islamic front right there. All your argument has is exceptions.
Let's see. Dubai, Egypt, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., and most of the continent of Africa are all Muslim dominated. And they are all just as varyingly peaceful as any other independent nation in the world, Islamic or otherwise. When you see Islam, you see Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. You refuse to see the rest of the picture because it does not fit in with what you believe. That is what allowing yourself to be fooled is like.
Besides, I already explained to you what Islamic law in the Qur'an is like. It's no different from Christianity, and in many respects, it is more forgiving and merciful. Why won't you read it? What are you afraid of? I like how you act like you know more about it having not read it, and you refuse to read it, and you say I'm a fool just for reading it. Actually, reading the sources of the opposing side is a great tool to understand them. It's how intelligent people advance their world view. You should try it sometime.
In regards to Islamic scholars: Islamic scholars do not all agree. They are just as divided as Christian scholars, Jewish scholars, and the like. Muslims are not all together, and I don't know why you are obsessed with that falsehood. They don't all disagree with me, only the ones who have jumped on the anti-West bandwagon probably do.
Don't you see? All politics are local, and anti-West sentiment is one path to power amongst the masses in the middle east. And for good reason: people only have to look around and see the West bombing their cities, Western soldiers walking through their towns, and claiming, like you, that all Muslims are their enemies. On the other side of the world, there are people writing books that are Islamic versions of Robert Spencer, creating Islamic versions of you.
No one lied to me about "real Islam". No one told me anything. I read the Qur'an. I open my eyes and see the truth. I've met and spoken with Muslims on numerous occasions. They are like you and me. They have families they love, dreams to achieve, and they desire peace and prosperity above all. I form my own opinions from my own knowledge and experiences, how do you do it?
Communism Phobia is the best way to describe the political environment of the Cold War. Politicians seeking power in the United States galvanized fear in the general population by holding the threat of nuclear annihilation over their heads. In retrospect, we know that Stalin never had an intention to attack the West. Neither did Mao. But the FEAR of it helped keep them in power, too. So both sides, The East and the United States, were just posturing pointlessly like peacocks, each attempting to mate with their own respective populations and political power structures.
Then Stalin died, and Kruscheiv gave his secret speech. Then Mao needed to destroy his rival at home, Lin Shaqui, so we have a picture of Zhou Enlai shaking hands with Richard Nixon. It was all phobia. None of it was ever warranted. The entire era was the result of devious manipulation of the masses.
Him:
There are approximately 100 million dead Russians, Chinese, and Eastern Europeans who would vehemently disagree with you. The communists "galvanzed" all the fear they needed without any help from us.
You wouldn't happen to be related to Walter Duranty, would you?
I can see you've never actually lived in an Islamic society. Trust me, you wouldn't want to. Ar maybe you should, because all of your illusions will be shattered within the first 10 minutes. Especially if you bring your wife or girlfriend.
How do I know this? A good friend's wife bears the scars inflicted by the canes of the Saudi mutaween.
In all of those "peaceful" countries you cite, Christians and Jews fear for their lives. Coptic Christians in Egypt are persecuted daily. Jews in Iran were driven out long ago. Open your eyes Mr. Scholar, you might learn something.
And let's see, you read the Bible. Did you also read Acquinas? Saint Frances of Assisi? Any western philosophy? Here's the thing. You cannot interpret the Bible correctlywithout understanding these accompanying texts.
The practical application of the Koran also follows this model. Muslims "read" the Koran, in Arabic, even if their native language is not Arabic. But they don't interpret it for themselves. The Imam does that for them. In all Islamic states there is a ruling council of clerics who define the law.
Islam is forgiving and merciful? Gimme a break. Stoning for adultery? A women who is raped is then punished by the religious police? Thieves getting their hands chopped off? Yes my friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 3 years saw many mutilations and executions in the town square. All presided over by a cleric.
So don't lecture me about Sharia. Because its implementation sucks.
Me:
You are a master of arguing points I didn't even make. I never said life under Communism didn't suck. You asked what communist phobia was and I said what communist phobia was: the fear of an attack that was never going to come, ever. But as usual, you are trying to distract from the main argument:
You can understand the Bible without reading everything else. It's a book with words in it. Anyone who can read can understand it. That's what Acquinas did. That's what Francis of Assisi did. They read the Bible, and then they wrote what they thought about it.
That doesn't make them more important than the actual Bible. Just because the political church leaders liked their shit so much that they basically canonized it doesn't make it Scriptural truth. It's just bullshit written by mortals who have no greater grasp of the question of Divinity than anyone else who reads the Bible. They just seem inspired because the Church made them Saints, an entirely political process.
It's the same thing with the Qur'an. Anyone who reads it can see the peace and tolerance behind the religion. Your argument that Sharia law sucks does not combat my points. I never said it didn't suck. I just said it's just like Biblical law, which also sucked very hard. And that it was worse. Try the book of Deuteronomy where the Bible commands you to kill your son if he is unruly, and to kill anyone who doesn't follow the order of a priest. The violence, the cruelty, and the insanity that is inherent with all fundamental religious wackos is right there, just like it can be potentially found in the application of Sharia law.
That's my point. My whole argument is that Islam is no different from the other two monotheistic religions. They all follow the same God, the God of Abraham, and the Qur'an even preaches for peace amongst Christians, Jews, and Muslims in multiple sections, affirming that all three paths are viable roads to heaven. It preaches for peace and the abstinence from violence almost from cover to cover.
The Imam's who you are talking about are misinterpreting the Qur'an for their own vile purposes. Anyone who has read the thing can see it, its obvious what the true nature of Islam is. That's my point. The Imams, the political leaders, they are the minority. You cannot judge a religion of 1.5 Billion people by the actions of a limited few. Do you claim Christianity is evil for the Spanish Inquisition? Do you claim Christianity is evil when it advocated African slavery? Do you claim Christianity is evil for the Crusades? You know, when thousands of Christians went to the Middle East and committed mass genocide?
No. You don't. You recognize that religion can do evil shit when evil men are holding the reigns, but you recognize that the religion itself is a force of good. It's the same situation now with Islam.
But you wouldn't know that, because you refuse to read the Qur'an. Refuse to read 400 pages for yourself. Because you are lazy and arrogant. You commit the greatest crime of intellect: trusting what someone else says. Hypocritically, you commit the same crime that you just criticized Muslims for: you don't interpret it for yourself.
P.S. Christians and Jews do not "fear for their lives" in those countries I listed because they are ruled by Muslims. Why wouldn't they move? Why don't most of them move? Why do they stay in what you claim is a land that wants to kill them? Why would they stay in a Muslim dominated country that they can freely move away from if they fear for their lives? It's because they don't. It's because Muslims are peaceful and normal like everyone else.
They, like everyone else, are afraid of the small minority of whack jobs. A small minority of a global population of 1.5 Billion. Your logic is the obvious fallacy of generalization.
Him:
Oh my young and naive new friend. There is so much that you think you know, yet so little that you understand.
Our fear of communism was driven by its propensity to murder its citizens.
You say all Christians need to do is read the Bible, but then admit that we don't follow of its precepts. We abolished slavery. We don't stone homosexuals. Why? Because the great philosophers put the Bible into *context*.
And now we have Islamic scholars who are putting the Koran into "context". They're the authority dude. Not you. Not me. Life E.F. Hutton, when they speak, the Muslims listen. And what they say, time and again, is "kill the Jews". What they say is "subjugate women". What they say is completely and utterly intolerent.
You must live in some fantasyland where theory trumps implementation. I live in the Real World, where the rubber meets the road. And in the Real World Islam is definitely working overtime to take over. In the Real World the goal of Islam is to impose Sharia over everyone.
Your small minority of Muslims crap is unproven. Where are the counterbalances to Iran and Hamas? There are no "moderate" Muslim states. Why do you suppose that is? There are no "moderate" Muslim clerics countering the Jihadis. Millions upon millions of Muslims worldwide rioted because of a few cartoons published in a Danish newspaper. Are they "moderates"?
Whack-job Christians? Sure. And when Pat Robertson says something stupid, he's denounced by all sides. Fred Phelps is a pariah. The Mullahs of Iran and Saudi Arabia are revered. Open your eyes chief.
And for God's sake, use Google. Coptic Christians in Egypt are under constant attack and persecution. What about Bethlehem? Should *it* move? The Muslims have made it virtually impossible for Christians to go there. Muslims desecrated the Church of the Nativity, using the prayer books for toilet paper. They defecated on the alter. Did millions upon millions of Christians worldwide riot? Yet it's a Federal Case when one bozo at NYU puts a Koran in a toilet?
"Why don't they move?" Good question! Ask it of Imam Rauf and his duplicious wife! Why don't *they* move!
Me:
Oh my archaic and prejudiced new friend. There is so much you think you know, yet so little you understand. It probably has something to do with you not reading the Qur’an for yourself.
Our fear of communism was fabricated by businessmen who understood that it was the working class figuring out they were all slaves to the top 5% of society. Then Stalinism came on the scene and that was what you were really afraid of and with good reason. Stalin was horribly evil, but he was never going to attack the West. Thus, the fear of communism was a pointless phobia for Americans like you. Only the propaganda of the time made it seem like it was battering down your doorstep, and this fear led to the great travesties of our nation's modern history: The bullshit of McCarthy, HUAC and its pointless persecution of normal Americans, the horrendous execution of the Rosenbergs.
A new, similar phobia of Islam now inhabits you, as if it is taking the place of this fear you grew up with, as if you don't know how to live without being afraid of something.
Like I said before, philosophers are just people who read the Bible and say what they think about it. The maturation of Christian society came from people reading it themselves, and generally preferring the parts that were good, and ignoring the parts that were evil. You have to do that with the Bible because it's got lots of evil stuff in it.
The Qur'an does not have any evil in it that is not already evident in the Bible: the stoning of murders and adulters, the mutilation of theifs. These are but harsh punishments for crimes, the same harsh punishments that the Bible advocated, but we now ignore. By logic, that means Islam can learn to ignore the same evil that Christians have learned to ignore. And just because the fundamentalist religious leaders make shit up, it doesn't make them an authority. It makes them liars. I AM an authority on what the Qur'an says because I have read it. You are NOT an authority on what the Qur'an says because you have not. It's that simple.
For example: The Qur'an never says to kill Jews. Not once. Thus, any preaching by religious leaders to kill Jews has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with the British giving land to Israel that the Palestinians already lived on. and the Qur’an DOES say to oppose oppressors, and Israel often goes out of its way to commit grave evils on its Palestinian neighbors. But even this fighting back concept is limited by the Qur’an. I’m just going to quote the Qur’an for you here, like a teacher trying to reach a stubborn child. Here is the only violent part in the entire Qur’an, so you can see it for yourself. Also, you can see the limits imposed on this violence, so it will be readily evident what elements the false Imams advocate, and which ones they conveniently ignore for their own purposes. It is important to note that this section is from early Islamic history. The Qur’an is delivered as direct answers from God to the questions of that era. This section is in response to the non-Muslims who controlled southern Saudi Arabia who were threatening to wipe out the infant Mohammedan society. You could also potentially argue that is gave the Muslims permission to conquer Medina in the same way that God’s Promise gave Israel to conquer the Promised Land. Unlike the Israelites, however, the Muslims did not put the entire population to the sword.
(2:190) “Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits.”
And the Arabic command for not overstepping the limits is “la ta’tadu,” a statement so general it includes the prohibition to start hostilities, fighting non-combatants, disproportionate responses to aggression.
Islam is a peaceful religion, but is not a turn-the-other cheek religion. If you attack with them, they have permission to counterattack until hostilities cease.
(2:191) “kill them wherever you encounter them (the persecutors), and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (the Kaaba) unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them- this is what such disbelievers deserve-
Notice it specifies that disbelievers who fight at the Kaaba, not all disbelievers.
(2:192) “-but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. (2:193) Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors.”
The Qur’an does not say to subjugate women. Again, the Bible does more with that. Arabic society, a patriarchal society, has a history of subjugating women stretching back long before Islam. It’s a cultural element more than a religious one. So is the general distrust of outsiders: an element of local tribal custom that stretches back long before Islam.
And you’re the one living in a fantasy land, dude. A magical place where you can judge a population of 1.5 Billion people by the action of their misguided 1-5%. The only argument you have made for the point of a global Islamic conspiracy has been anecdotes to small groups of people. You want moderate Islamic states? How about Turkey? How about Indonesia? How about Duabi? And Egypt isn’t off the list, either. Persecution can happen, even in free states sometimes. Look at yourself: advocating the persecution of Muslims in the supposedly persecution-free United States of America. But how about I play your game for a little while? How about I just list off all the examples of my side as if it were an effective argumentative tactic (which it isn’t, it’s the strategy of populists and demagogues). There are, in fact, about 1.4 Billion counterexamples to Iran and Hamas.
How can there be a global Islamic conspiracy to take over the world and kill people if:
America can play the Algerian soccer team in the World Cup, in full view of hundreds of Islamic fans, and not be killed?
How can millions of Muslims live in America peacefully with the rest of America?
Why does Iran have so much trouble controlling their population, which is constantly rebelling against its religious totalitarianism?
Why do American Muslims join the United States military, fight in the Middle East for our bogus wars, lose their lives, and get buried in national cemeteries like any other American hero?
Why do you ignore the presence of moderate Imams when 95% of all Muslims in the world are not members of any terrorist group or any fundamentalist Islamic regime or even the military of said regimes?
That’s the big question. How to you ignore almost every Muslim on the planet in the favor of this fantasy you have constructed for yourself. Don’t you think 1.5 Billion Muslims working together to take over the world would be rather more explosive then what we are seeing? Don’t you think that 1/6 of the world’s population working in concert would involve much more than a few hundred combatants in caves, and a few hundred Imams who preach hate? Two totalitarian governments? No, probably not. Because you don’t think. You just believe what you want.
Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are great examples of what I am talking about. And notice how you don’t judge the rest of Christianity by them. And Christians generally shun them. That is because most Christian dominated countries are in the West, the richest place in the world. The place where nearly everyone has a job, can generally take care of their family without worrying about starvation, and you can even afford some luxury items.
Most Islamic countries are not that way. Most Islamic countries are poor, and large swaths of the population dangle at the bottom of the totem pole, living in near poverty. Many young Muslim men are angry at the lack of opportunity available to them when they see the riches of the West on their televisions. Many can see American troops bombing other Muslims, marching soldiers in Muslim streets, American politicians claiming entire nations of Islamic people are evil and that they are foes. As it has always been, angry young men, the desperate, those full of wrath, are prime for manipulation by someone in high esteem. This has nothing to do with Islam, this has everything to do with economics and demagoguery. The vast majority of Muslims do oppose violence, you just don’t bother to look for anything other than the violence because that fits in with your fantasy world.
There is one point you made that does merit legitimate discussion, however. The question of global outrage over mistreatment of the Bible and the characterization of Muhammed. I agree that general Islamic outrage over these events are over-the-top. But look at it from their point of few. Islam is obviously very important to Muslims, and like any normal human being, Muslims get pissed off when what they hold dear is desecrated. If you learn one of your friends really feels bad after you tease them about a certain thing, do you continue teasing them about it? Not unless you’re a total dick. You back off that subject, and you never mention it again. That is how social interaction works. Why is it unfair for the Muslim community to demand such common decency? And besides, most of the protests you spoke of were peaceful, if very sensationalist. The death threats and the actual violence again came from a small minority.
And why doesn’t Imam Rauf move? For the same reason non-Muslims don’t move out of Islamic countries. They like where they live, and obviously whatever hardships they face are not enough to make them move. It means that things aren't as bad as they seem. When things get bad, you can quite easily tell by large migrations of refugees.
Him:
Dude, is somebody paying you by the word? This isn't a term paper; I don't need 5 double-spaced typed pages. 
YOU are an "authority" on the Koran? Care to produce a citation or 2 to back that up? You read the book. Yippee Kai Ay. Madonna read some Talmud and now she thinks she's an expert on Kabballah. My best friend's son is a a rabbi; he knows Madonna is full of shit.
At the risk of getting tedious I will not debate Koranic verses with you. But I'll take a few pot shots:
"Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God."
So, here's the thing. The Muslims are instructed to fight us until our "worhip is devoted to God". Only in the Koran it says "Allah". When we worship Allah, then they will stop fighting us. Not one minute before. How else do you explain the Jizya (tax on infidels)? If we pay them off they'll leave us alone? No thanks.
The Koran explicitly denounces the Jews: "As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters." (5:64) Also, "Strongest among men in emnity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews."
And if you don't think the goal of the Koran is to turn everyone into a Muslim try verse 5:60 on for size:
“Shall I tell you who, in the sight of God, deserves a yet worse retribution than these? They whom God has rejected and whom He has condemned, and whom He has turned into apes and swine because they worshipped the powers of evil:”
That's the famous "Jews are apes and pigs" citation. It's taught in all the top Madrassas. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.
There are LOTS more than 4 verses talking about hatred. You just have to know how to read.
---
And on the communism front. Gimme a break. You speak like a true deluded intellectual. Communism would be great if only we implemented it right! No same person can believe that. Everywhere communism has been tried it has failed miserably. Give it another chance? Go ahead, move to North Korea, I hear they are real true communists!
---
On the "jealousy" angle you espouse - Muslim men seeing rich westerners with more stuff than they have - there's an easy solution. Put down the AK-47 and get a job. I know a lot of people richer than me. I don't hate them or envy them. I try to emulate their success via hard work.
Me:
I know I type a lot. :). Sorry about that. But we are discussing complicated issues, and I am a college grad. I’m trained to make arguments in 6-8 pages. But I am incredibly pleased you are providing quotes, too. This is becoming fun! And no sarcasm is intended there! I am very much enjoying this. Two dudes, arguing ideas! This is why language was invented! Please bear with my long posts! But you introduce so many new ideas in each of your posts I am obligated to discuss each and every one with more than some liberal sound-byte.
I agree that to say I am an authority on the Qur’an is presumptuous. Which is why I put on the qualifier: “I am an authority on what the Qur’an says,” implying that I have read it, and am fully knowledgeable of its contents. I am at the same space that any believer of any religion is in: I have read the Holy Scripture. I know it’s contents, and I have become equal to any other “authority” on it because we all have just that: the single book from God which all other opinions throughout the ages have been generated from.
I might be tedious, but that is a requirement of all intellectual discussion. But here is the reason for my claim:
A philosopher, or any sort of theologian, reads the Qur’an or the Bible and then formulates their own opinion and interpretation. They are mortal human beings, who can only claim knowledge of the will of God through extreme arrogance. Thus, the ideas of any such person are removed from the actual text, like in the recording of a video cassette you are one generation removed from the original copy. It is still pretty good quality, but even in the first copy the quality of the image is somewhat less than the original.
A discussion based on that philosopher/theologian’s opinion becomes a second generation edition: a copy of a copy. The image quality is even less reliable, now two editions removed from the original. The opinions have become distorted from the Truth of the original. How do you know the first generation of philosophers were right? You don’t. But they might seem like good ideas, so you run with them. Eventually, mortal opinion built on mortal opinion, you are so far from the original copy that the picture is distorted and it’s obvious that something has gone wrong.
Thus, it is my firm belief, and please attack me here because I have no real basis for this outside logic, is that the further you engage in the outside sources, the outside ideas, you forget about what the original text says. And since the original text is the whole point in the discussion in the first place, you are journeying further and further away from the entire point of the discussion in the first place.
With that in mind:
In regards to your first quote:
Allah is the Arabic word for God. The God of Islam is the same Divine Entity that both the Jews and the Christians worship. That IS the Truth. You cannot deny that. I’ll restate it again: read the Qur’an. You might learn new stuff, and even if you are determined in your own beliefs like I know you are, you have the potential to gain new ammunition for your own side. It won’t be a wasted effort, regardless of how your beliefs emerge from the experience.
Your claim that the Qur’an says to never stop till we all worship God ignores the historical context of the passage. This is not a fault in your argument because I failed to make this point in my post, and I am sorry for that:
The entire passage I quoted surrounded the Muslim attempts to worship at the Kabaa. So when it says “worship is devoted to God” it means that the Muslims are finally able to travel there in safety and worship as they desire. The Qur’an supports the idea that a non-believer can live in Mecca in peace, as long as they let Muslims come and pray. Is that such a hard demand? No.
I can’t remember anything in the Qur’an about the Jizya you are talking about. Can you provide a quote for that? I would genuinely like to know because I think that is a dogma that generated outside from the Qur’an. However, if it turns out my memory is correct (which I am unsure of), you can still consider this: do you live in Mecca? No. Do you have a right to control how the owners of Mecca control Mecca? No. So if they want to tax you to live there, is it not their right? You have no ownership of that land, so what is the problem?
Next: your excellent quote of (5:64).
Here again I must argue context, but this time a Qur’an based context. The Qur’an says that it is God’s prerogative to punish, to judge, at Judgement Day, the end of the world. This just gives God’s position on the subject, it does not give permission to Muslims to punish those who Allah loveth not. I offer this quote in response:
(2:62) The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians (a monotheistic religion that I think has since died out)- all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good- will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.”
This is an obvious endorsement of all three faiths. And through the command to do good, it is an equal condemnation to the evil members of all three faiths.
Your quote of (5:60) falls under the same argument. Nowhere in the quote, or anywhere surrounding the quote, does it command Muslims to take these condemnations into their own hands. And I think we can both agree that God will punish whomever He desires to punish on the Last Day when everyone is dead. If He is God, that is his prerogative, but He does not delegate this punishment to anyone, certainly not mortals.
The fact that this might be taught as permission to punish is exactly my point that some Islamic philosopher/theologians are corrupting the Qur’an to preach evil. In the very quote you used, God claims that those He has transformed deserved it for following evil, and any Islamic leader who preaches that same evil in Islam will receive the same punishment. It’s like when you scold children in a classroom: the other kids know that anything you say to one child applies to all of them.
I am dubious on your claim about more than four verses of hated, as again, you have not read the Qur’an. But perhaps if you consider my point about how God does not give the responsibility of punishment to Mortals, you might look at these quotes in a different way.
In regards to communism:
I never said communism would be great if you implemented it right. I argued only about it’s origins and about the identity of the philosophy you feared: Stalinism. Again, Stalinism was a terrible, terrible thing, and everyone was correct in fearing it then and today. But communism itself is not something to fear, but it is something that doesn’t work. The main flaw of the entire philosophy was that idea that people who did no work would be rewarded equally to those who did tons of work. Without incentive, human beings will do nothing. I agree wholeheartedly with this. And no, I don’t want to go to North Korea. North Korea is another corruption of Communism and is basically Animal Farm in real life.
And I think you write off this jealousy too quickly by assuming these poorer countries are like America. Sure, they have basic level positions like in America: equivalents of Subway or washing dishes, or whatnot: but they don’t PAY, man. You can make more in a week in America at minimum wage than you can in a month in almost every part of the non-western world (China and India are perhaps exceptions, but not by very much). Even if they do work, they cannot get ahead like Americans can. And the fact that you, living in a society where only 20% of humanity knows its equal in terms of wealth, can get over the jealousy of a mansion and nice cars is irrelevant. That is not, as far as I know, what third-worlders lust for: they lust for food on the table for three meals every day without struggle, they lust for a home that isn’t in the slums, they lust for a future where they can climb above washing dishes or working in a factory to stock Wal-Marts in America. Is that so much to desire?
This desire makes these young men susceptible to the evil men who corrupt the Qur’an. This makes men willing to become suicides, because they feel their death will give their family more resources than their living an entire lifetime will.
Him:
Historical context? Hold on a minute Hoss. You said to read the words. Once you inject "historical context" (or any other "context") you're right where I am - interpreting the words.
We've strayed far afield from the Ground Zero mosque. Charles Krauthammer speaks far more eloquently than I do on that score:
Me:
Okay. I'm done.
When you post a new blog devoted entirely to insulting me: My ability to write at length about important issues, ignore points I have made in order to make me look worse than I am, and even use my twitter handle as some kind of attack on me as a person.
It means I've wasted my time with someone who I gave the benefit of the doubt as being a good person. I was wrong. Enjoy your hate mongering. I will never bother you again.
As a warning though: I am going to repost our discussion on my blogs. I am doing this because I think this entire exercise is a good display of the two sides of the argument. But since I have decency, I won't be using your name, I won't be insulting you. I'll just show the entire discussion in its entirety.
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